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MOC files lawsuit against Clio Area Schools, Seeks to protect law abiding gun owners

As set forth in the precedent setting opinion of Capital Area District Library v. Michigan Open Carry, Inc, school Districts are barred from making rules forbidding the lawful carry of a pistol. Yet, many districts throughout the state continue to do so with illegal policies and bullying. Michigan Open Carry, Inc (MOC) has partnered with Kenneth Herman to file suit against Clio Area Schools (CAS).  Mr. Herman is a dues paying member of MOC.

Starting in 2013, Mr. Herman has, and continues to be, aggrieved by CAS.  His constitutionally guaranteed right to self defense has been chilled as a result of threats of arrest and criminal prosecution should he not comply with CAS’s unlawful policy related to firearms.  As a result of these unlawful actions on the part of CAS, he has been unable to defend himself while attending to business or other functions at his daughter’s school.

This lawsuit comes on the heels of Michigan Open Carry, Inc working successfully with several other, more cooperative school districts to modify their firearm policies to bring them into compliance with State Law.

According to Mr. Herman, his daughter's teachers have taken it upon themselves to mention his self defense choices in class to all the other students, possibly to incite ridicule amongst her peers.

It costs Michigan Open Carry, Inc. thousands (indeed, tens of thousands) of dollars to prosecute lawsuits such as this one.  Won't you consider making a very generous one time or reoccuring donation to our legal fund today?


MOC's Complaint in the State's 7th Circuit

K12 Lawsuit


Lawsuit? Read the Constitution its right there in black and white. Open carry I believe every legal American Citizen should. However to stop the harrassment I have always had a CPL
and we know we cannot carry on school
grounds concealed codos too those that have the the time and resources to fight such stupidity.

If someone comes into a school with a gun on his or her hip or wherever it may be and they have the right to carry, kudos to them, but ... Come on! My son and daughter go to that school and I do not want the person's gun in the school! I know the person would most likely not be going after some one and I know it is a self defense mechanism, but my kids cannot defend themselves against another person that may not understand this law and may believe they can bring a gun to school because this man or woman did.
I believe the schools are right to create some of their own cautionary rules. Banning ALL guns no matter the situation, unless law enforcement, is perfectly fine by me.

see this is the problem we have lacked some much in teaching are children they don't know how to act when a gun around i OC and CC my kids and their friends do not even notice that it is there. your right kids can't defend themselves and you are going to wait for a cop we have seen what happens remember sandy hook. as far as banning guns more people would be killed because the only person to save them is someone who can choose if they want to help and still get paid for nothing.

another bleeding heart liberal...

As a parent with a child at the school that is now involved in this frivolous lawsuit I find it utterly ridiculous! Seems to me that Mr. Herman should care more about his child's education than his damn gun rights! There is nothing more disturbing to me than someone suing a school district for something that could have been settled by a simple discussion with the principle, which Herman indeed never tried! I sincerely hope that they are ready for a fight because the parents and town officials are ready for the jackasses!

Apparently you didn't read the lawsuit. Mr. Herman tried very hard on multiple ocaisions to educate the school. Mr. Herman and MOC sued only after the school indicated that they intended to purpetuate their unlawful policy. I know that you don't understand, but that seems to be out of ignorance. 

Mr. Herman did not try to educate the school he tried to get his name and his fanatical ideaology their ten minutes of fame. Period. Anyone that has indeed watched his video on You Tube of his little hissy fit that day could easily see that he is not trying to educate anyone, he's simply trying to gain attention. I hope that after a parent at our school files their PPO for their child against this idiot he then gets the idea that he not only lacks self control but also common damn sense.

I can assure you, Ken takes his daughter's education with the upmost seriousness.  He also cares about her life and his ability to protect himself (and her) wherever he goes.  He knows bad things happen -- almost anywhere.  He is a paramedic.  More than most, Mr. Herman has seen the worse situations our society has to offer.


I know Mr. Herman is taking this opportunity very seriously to teach his daughter to stand up for her civil rights and to challenge oppressing Government.  The better question is, why aren't you teaching your child these same lessons -- and why are you ridiculing him for teaching his daughter his values?

He may be taking his daughters education seriously but what about what he is causing her socially? This is a serious lapse in judgement if this man doesn't think this is causing her any harm. As far as me teaching my children to stand up for themselves with opposing governments. Do you realize how fanatical you just sounded? My children attend her school , in fact my daughter is in the same grade and said she has been told that this little girl is embarrassed of her father. What exactly is that teaching her? My children have been raised around guns and proper handling of such weapons but there has to come a point where you have to think about what is legal may not always be morally right. This town is going to sit back and laugh at this so called "patriot" when he isn't allowed into his daughters school because one of our parents there found him enough threat to file a Civil Protection Order against him on behalf of her child. Once again it teaches that when you play with fire you should expect your opponents to fight back with the same amount of conviction.

1) Just because some hoplophobe applies for a CPO doesn't mean it will be granted.
2) I'm sure Rosa Parks' family was a little embarrassed. Do you argue she should have just kept quiet and not made a fuss?

Is that really the correct analogy that you meant to use? Rosa Parks? That woman was indeed a victim as was her family. Mr. Herman is making himself and his family OUT to be victims! He shows a total disregard for any type of authority and has on multiple occasions. He may have the "law" in the books on his side but he certainly isn't making his poor daughters life any easier! So far he's went against his own city and now he's taking on a school district. What's next on the agenda? Take the family pup and slaughter it out back? Some people honestly should not only have a license to carry but one to procreate as well.

Disregard for authority?  It is exactly the opposite.  Mr. Herman has respected authority throughout this entire ordeal.  He has obeyed the law (legal authority) and not illegally CCed in the school.  He has met with the school and tried to work it out.  He has spoken with the local police.  In fact, he has done everything within his power to work things out without resorting to a lawsuit.  It is the school that has no respect for authority as shown by their blatant disregard for the law.  They are the ones disregarding authority.

We protect our money with trained peoples with guns, hell we protect scum bags with trained peoples with guns, why the hell should we leave our kids "unprotected" or under the surveillance of police 2 blocks away (which is the same thing)

Tim, I understand that you don't "like" the gentleman having a gun in the school. It is however, his legal RIGHT. Would you agree that if you don't "like" the religion your child's peers practice, that it doesn't mean that it should be banned? This is a free country, and it's the best country. For the record, I don't necessarily agree with the gentleman carrying into this school in this situation, as I also have a child in this school. I realize however, that the way this country became a beacon of light for all the immigrants who populated it the centuries over, is because I can not "like" something, but realize at the same time that it doesn't need to change.

To the anonymous person who keeps posting so fanatically against Mr. Herman. I've already stated that I don't necessarily agree with his actions, and that I also have a child who is involved in this. But, please, just for a moment, set aside all your preconceived notions and just think, just imagine... you're standing in the office next to this gentleman, and in comes Adam Lanza (Sandy Hook Shooter), he has a rifle, and is screaming and screaming that he wants to kill (after all, this is every parents worst fear). You grab your phone, you call 911. The dispatcher tells you officers are on the way and that they will be there in less than 4 minutes (the nationwide average is 15 minutes), then the shots start ringing out. Shot after shot coming from that evil boy's rifle. How many children can he kill in 4 minutes? How many shots can he get off? Can the responding officer even stop him when he does get there? What if he kills the officer? The shots keep ringing out every 3 seconds, the police are on their way, but lives are being lost (this isn't an imaginary scenario- this is what the folks at Sandy Hook lived through) . Now you look to your left at Mr Herman, this law abiding paramedic parent standing next to you. The shots keep coming. Do you really, really... truly in your heart, wish that he didn't have that gun? I cannot imagine how any parent of any child in the school where the shots keep booming, wants him disarmed at that moment, while you all helplessly wait for the good officer, who's driving 100mph to arrive, get out of his car, enter the school, find the sick gunman, and take him on alone. Put in that very real situation, you CANNOT be so far blinded by your fear of this law abiding (albeit a little extreme) man that you'd want to let all those extra rounds fly out of Adam Lanza's gun. If you're being honest, you CAN'T want that for your child, and neither can I, and neither can Mr. Herman. I'm just trying to say... look at both sides

lets keep giving a place for stupid people to shoot up schools. really think about it you protect your money with guns you protect everything with guns. so what people are saying is our children are worth less then a piece of paper that's stupidly at it's best there teach your child about guns. the more you hide them from the real world the danger you put them in. sad really sad parenting ! if you don't want them out in the open the help pass a law to CC so stupid people can keep making the U.S.A worse and put are kids in more danger

and that is the real truth like it or not which side you stand on to protect them or not

Can someone from MOC please explain how this law can be enforced by school administrators in a way that also protects students? By the time someone comes in to the school and shows their CPL, they are ALREADY IN THE SCHOOL and could be a mass murderer. No one has challenged the law on grounds of impracticability, but it they might, and they have a strong case. If you want to defend this law, please explain how administrators are supposed to do their jobs.

Will a law or policy protect the children?  Signs don't protect people, but good guys with guns can.

While I do not speak for MOC, and while I do understand that those stating that laws only stop the law-abiding citizens have a valid point, I would like to suggest a practical response to your request.

1. Most schools have a rule/policy that all visitors must immediately sign in at the office. If they do not have at least this, they are being foolish. During this check-in, they can respectfully inquire about possession of a CPL. In this case, if the person walking around has not checked in, they should be immediately confronted.

2. At many schools, you must obtain permission to enter (via intercom or funneling through the office). This is an ideal way to check for CPL or other.

We live in a world that has drastically changed from the 70s, and schools need to be creative in responding to the threats around us. I am encouraged by a forward-thinking school in MA that is now training all teachers in firearms defense, and encouraging them to obtain CPLs and carry at the school. Think for a moment... Which school will some killer more likely choose? The one with no defense outside of 911, or the one with teachers who are trained and carrying? I want my child in the one with the teachers who are ready to defend her when I am not there!

The biggest problem w/ guns in the schools are the teachers/admin/other parents (ie ADULTS). The students(KIDS) could care less..

Maybe the school should have every kid bring in a can of food so they would have some defense. One school district was innovative and has done that--wow.

I am a CPL holder and I carry my firearm everday, everywhere. I have invested a considerable amount of my time and money in the proper training to acquire my CPL. I am allowed by law to carry my firearm concealed in restaurants, shopping malls, grocery stores, movie theatres, banks, the doctors office, the dentist, furniture stores , public parks, state lands, federal parks and numerous other places where there are always children present, but for some reason if I were to walk into a "school" armed, somehow I instantly become a threat to the children. Why is that if I am not considered a threat anywhere else? I can understand, and I respect the fact that some people fear or just plain don't like firearms and the sight of an openly carried firearm in a school could be quite intimidating to some, therefore it seems to me that if our legislators would just eliminate "gun free" zones it would solve the problem and it grant all of us law abiding citizens the constitutionally guaranteed right to self defense. If the firearm is out of sight, it is out of mind, it is why we call it "concealed carry". Keep in mind that in every school shooting there has ever taken place, the shooter or shooters obviously did not care that the school was a "gun free" zone. When seconds count the police are just minutes away.

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